EPISODE SUMMARY
HOST: Ruth Elder
Dr. Van Innis is the first and so far only specialist with a post-doctorate degree in the Upper Neck in all of Europe. His practice is in Ghent, Belgium. He has people traveling from all over Europe to see him. Dr. Van Innis speaks multiple languages. In this episode he talks about his own story and why he decided to make the commitment to travel 27 times in 3 ½ years in order to get the Diplomate of Chiropractic Craniocervical Procedures when he was already a successful chiropractor.
Among other topics we discussed:
Upper Cervical studies in Europe.
What is vitalism?
People with Complex issues who are frustrated with the lack of answers.
Science vs. philosophy.
What is the DCCJP?
Collaborating with other specialists.
Platelet-rich plasma therapy.
Every person is different.
The future of chiropractic in Europe.
Other podcast episodes related to people and topics discussed in this episode:
What can a Diplomate do for you?
To Contact Dr. Geoffroy Van Innis:
To contact Ruth, go to https://www.blairclinic.com
https://www.facebook.com/rutelin
Transcript
Welcome, welcome, welcome to What Pain in the Neck. In this podcast episode, I am sitting here in Ghent. How do you say it?
Ghent.
Ghent, Belgium. And the voice that you heard saying Ghent in Belgian is Dr. Geoff Van Ennis.
That's correct.
Can you say your name like properly?
Yeah, that would be Geoffroy Van Ennis. It's more French Dutch.
Great. Okay. So, I am just so tickled to be here. It's such a special thing. I will say the occasion for us being here is the first ever Blair Technique Chiropractic Seminar in Europe. Ever in history. And so we'll talk a little bit about why that is significant. But first, why don't we start with I call you Geoff, is that okay?
That's perfect.
Yeah, what do your patients call you? Chiropractor Van Innis?
Yeah, I think most of them call me Doctor, and some of them who get to know me better start to call me like, just Geoff.
Okay. Alright, so, Doctor, tell us about your background. Like, how did you end up? You are the first ever diplomate in the craniocervical junction procedures, which means that you're the first neck specialist chiropractor in all of Europe.
Yep. That sounds - looks like that. Yes.
And that is like really, really special. So, why don't you talk a little bit about how that happened, like what's your background? And then we'll move a little bit into why this is so significant and important.
Awesome. Thank you. So, when considering my background, like I was always a student looking for more answers and for finding solutions. And personally, I was not really satisfied with over-adjusting a patient or I couldn't really understand when I would have to stop adjusting a patient. So I was always looking for more questions. And so while searching for my answers while living in South America I came ready to the conclusion, like, wait a minute, I want to deepen myself a little bit in the upper cervical, but not really knowing much about it. And I found the Diplomate Discourse online, I think also via a podcast, Upper Cervical Marketing. And I heard Jeff Scholten and Julie Mayer Hunt speaking, which were super interesting characters. And I was like, that really resonates with me. There are some science behind there, there's some facts behind there, there's some calculations behind there, I want to get to know better in the upper cervical region. So I signed up. I went to the U.S. I was very fortunate that Gordon, your husband, was my roommate for the last four years. I really became like an upper cervical master, like that.
Okay. So that's a great summary, but you actually skipped ahead a little bit.
Oh, did I?
Yeah. So why did you become interested in chiropractic in the first place?
Oh, in the first place. I think like when I go down back to really childhood, like when I was really a young child, I would feel my CT junction, and it would always feel like little bones there, and I thought I was part of a dynasty of dinosaurs.
The CT junction? So what are you talking about?
The connection between the cervical and thoracic spine.
Okay, so that's the lower neck and the upper back.
Yeah, that's the region. That's the region. So I was feeling these parts and I always felt like, Oh, I like these bones and it's like there's a certain texture to it that looked like dinosaurs in my eyes when I was a child. And then I thought, “Whoa, that's so interesting. That's so cool.” And next thing you know, like I came across. Chiropractic by a random story, but I read about chiropractic for like 10 minutes and I was like, “yup, that's it.” So I went downstairs, I told my mom I want to be a chiropractor and I became a chiropractor.
That's cool. And it's, it's taken some twists and turns for you. You mentioned South America, so here you are in Belgium, you went to school in England. And then you ended up in South America. You've told me that story, so I think it would be interesting to include your…
My background background then. So basically I graduated as a student in 2015 from the Anglo European culture of chiropractic in England, ADCC. I was a fairly good student, I think, but I wasn't ready to come back home. I like the international aspect of my life. So I decided to go to Barcelona. And in Barcelona, I was working with the vice president of chiropractic at the time, Darren Wiese, really great chiropractor, really fun guy. So I learned a bit more about the vitalistic part because I was searching more on vitality, I guess. And suddenly I had the opportunity to go traveling in South America.
So what does that mean, the vitalistic part?
I think it's just like when I graduated, I came from a very medically based chiropractic school and the vitality part would be more like looking at the body in a wholistic way, more in a natural way. So looking more from a philosophy point of view, I would say that would be just my approach where I would go to explain that. So, after Spain, I went to Peru and I opened there. I had a couple of offices, but that was really too vitalistic, too philosophy for me. Like it was literally just adjusting people, like I was saying, and then came my conclusion, like I need to figure out when to adjust and especially when not to adjust.
That is really the key.
So, that was my search and I think I finally arrived to a couple of my answers, but of course, more questions arise with complexity, but it's more questions within the same framework. So now we're building towards something.
The more you learn, the more you figure out there's more to learn.
Exactly.
So I think it's important to note. You didn't tell that part of the story, but when you lived in Peru, you had it pretty good there.
Yeah, life was pretty wild.
And so the reason I want to ask this question is, so you had a private chauffeur, right? And you were making money and you were living a good life. And it's just, you were so driven to find answers to help people in a more complete way. Do you wanna talk a little bit about that?
I was living the dream. I think I was 24, 25 and I had like pretty much everything you could ever dream of. So I had the housemates, chauffeur. Cooks. Yeah. It was very comfortable.
You know, but that's South America. Of course, if you're a white doctor, you earn a fair amount and that's like a heap more than regular peruvian population. I was at that that age like 24,25,26. I came back to Europe. I think 26. I was back in Belgium where I decided and I said to myself like look this thing exists but I don't need this thing right now. It will still exist If I'm 50, if I want to go back there, and so then, then I decided I'd rather be like closer to my family because my sister got married in that period of time. And then I would have some realization like, I want to go back and really dive into the neurology and the evidence of what I'm doing and starting to become more of a doctor.
Yeah, you're a really serious scientist and top notch doctor now. So before weget to that part, because that's really skipping over the part where we met. So that was through the Diplomate program. So why don't you describe what that is from your perspective, and you mentioned a little bit of why you signed up?
Yeah, exactly. So the Diplomate Program is basically an organization created by the International Chiropractic Association. It's where we focus on all the different Upper Cervical Techniques. So I don't know by my heart how many there are but let's say there's about 10 I guess of different Upper Cervical Techniques and different kind of procedure approaches.
So, the Diplomate program looks at all these different techniques and really tries to break them down, like this is a strength in that, that's a strength in that, that's a strength in that. They try to look at what's all the research in that region saying. And at the same time, they go in a really deep dive in the anatomy, neuroanatomy, biomechanics, physiologically, behind the upper cervical adjustment. And so in about three years time, but with COVID, it was four years. You really master through the nitty-bitty stuff of everything. It's not a hands on year, so that's what many people get confused. Like, they think, “oh, I'm gonna learn every single Upper Cervical Technique and learn how to adjust.” Not really, because it's not a hands on procedure kind of thing. You still need to get your qualifications on the side of having your hands on.
So it's a scientific program.
Exactly. So it's not hands on. It's really more like looking at the research, the data, the knowledge. But the good thing is with that, it's like once a month during these three years, I would, you would say, give or take. And then of course it's very, very, very, very difficult and rigorous testing. Like I think I never studied that much in my life.
Yes. I see all these - That was the thing that surprised me the most, all these smart doctors and my husband in particular is who I know the best. I've never seen him nervous for a test in his life.He was nervous for two months.
Yeah. You have to prepare for essays and write two essays under two hours of like each 4, 000 words. So it's like eight pages of writing, I think. Then there was like 150 questions from year one and two and 150 questions from year two and three, I think, on which you, every single test you had to pass with 80%. But an 80 percent pass mark is like, you need to be pretty determined to pass.
And it's hard, hard stuff. And before that you had to write a research paper and some other things.
It's a great program. I highly recommend it. Like we make it sound like it's, it's like “oh my God, so nerdy and stuff”, but every weekend you go, you get so pumped. And when I would be traveling back and forth from the US, I would be rocking, I would come back home and I would be full of fire from talking to these incredible doctors. And of course with Gordon taking me through Blair technique subtleties that I knew should add in my adjustment to get even more improvement. And of course you would test it or you would test the research that you just read over the weekend. That's really great stuff.
Yeah. When you graduated at the ceremony, it was pointed out that you made 27 trips back and forth across the Atlantic in three years. And then of course there was COVID and that made everything that much more difficult. So you had to zoom in to have some of them. And I remember you said it's the best investment I ever made. And also all of that - I mean, this wasn't cheap either.
Yeah, it wasn't cheap, but it was cheap for what you were getting. Like some people were struggling with it because they're like, “oh, it's so expensive.” But at the same time, I go like, that was the best decision for me because it cleared my answers and I can help my patients with more certainty. Like right now, I'm in office in Ghent, but my patients are internationally. So I continuously have patients traveling back and forth from the UK, traveling back and forth from Denmark, from Norway, traveling from Italy to me, traveling from Slovenia to me, a couple of Swiss professional athletes. Like, it's really, really cool. Like, it's stuff I would not have imagined, but it's just because I have that additional knowledge, I guess, that people are seeking for and they're struggling with. Like, for example, brain fog or Chiari malformations. Or vertigo or really excessive headaches that the neurologist just cannot fix. And then they're finding information online on the Blair technique or any other upper cervical technique and they're trying to find a specialist. And of course, I'm kind of their lead choice, like, or their lead find. I don't know how they find me. I think I have to do a huge thank out also to Kevin Pecca for his TikTok videos. That's a really weird thing of attracting patients.I still find I don't get it, but it works apparently and patients are coming to me. So yeah, that's, that's what I'm doing.
Yes. You truly have set yourself up as a leader in this science of Upper Cervical here in Europe. And the program did that for you.
The program pushed me in that position for Europe. Although I must say, I still feel I'm only the beginning cause like, it's really hard to position yourself and say, “oh, I'm the expert.” When you're talking in a room of so many super incredible docs where I still think I'm just an average, incredible docs, but like there's a very high level above me still. So I think I need to still learn a lot.
Well, all the best doctors have that point of view. The more you know, the more you realize there's more to know. So one of the things that I've heard you talk about that I think is really cool is, - and I think correct me if I'm wrong, the DCCJP program has set you up for that. You talk to some pretty high level doctors in Belgium here and Europe in general that are neurologists and other specialties within medicine. Right?
Yeah. So can you talk a little bit about how that works and how you can cooperate with other professionals and how that works?
Yeah, exactly. So. I've been fortunate to be asked to talk at medical conferences as well, like with 60 docs, like MDs. But more recently, I've been finding relations without actually pushing it a lot of just, just coincidence of co-mutual interests, I would say, with anesthesiologists, neurologists, and orthomolecular specialists, or even periodontal specialist, which is teeth. And yeah, I think I had like some really good conversations with them about, for example, some regenerative therapy or about some TMJ mal-positioning.
And like, I have questions, how can I solve my patients better? And so I go try to find a specialist and I try to really ask the goods and honest questions that they really feel like, “hey, this guy is also onto something.” Next thing you know, we get a good relationship out of it, and I refer patients out to them, they refer patients to me, and we are brainstorming, and that's really cool because like, when you're a specialist at the level that I work at, you can brainstorm with top professionals as an anesthesiologist, as a neurosurgeon. Because they're really interested in what you do because it's non surgical and you're still helping a lot of patients.
Yeah, so can you give some examples of maybe some stories or just break it down to our listeners? You mentioned a neurosurgeon and an anesthesiologist and a jaw specialist. What does that have to do with being a specialist chiropractor? How does that fit together?
The thing it fits together because like you're a neck specialist but patients are patients and patients have troubles and some patients still need more and then you need to think like how can I provide more or how can I add more and how can I combine more because if you have a lot of like craniocervical instability, you will have quite severe symptoms, which can be very vast, but with this misalignments, like which creates instability, there's ligaments that are damaged.
So that means the upper neck, if you have an injury to the upper neck, which is what you specialize in.
Exactly. So if you have this kind of instability and you get it realigned or recorrected, sometimes in some cases, there is a need to get some extra additions to that. And that would be, for example, PRP, which is like blood like…
Platelet Rich Plasma?
Yeah. Platelet-rich plasma. So your blood that it gets centrifuged and then you can extract the blood platelets of this and with these blood platelets, you can get, again, hypertrophied damaged ligaments. So you can re-heal damaged ligaments. So it's like regenerative therapy.
Can you talk about what ligaments do and why it's so significant to regenerate ligaments?
Well, firstly, when you have an atlas misalignment, Firstly, it's misaligned. So it's not - there's no proper bony interarticulation between these two places. But of course, with poor bony articulation, there will also be ligament laxity or ligament damage. And this ligament damage can be significant or insignificant. Now, in most cases in an Upper Cervical office, in nearly all cases, you realign the cervical spine and the ligaments will heal themselves.
Yeah, and the ligaments is what's holding the position in place. Is that correct?
The ligaments stabilize the bony alignment. So it's a bony alignment, but the ligaments help to stabilize it alongside with a small inter articulate musculature. So the small, small, small little muscles.
All right. And so that's what the PRP injections can help.
So with extreme damage. And extreme laxity and maybe this patient goes through lots of g-forces like downhill skiing or something like that, then maybe there is more need for more stability. And then this could be a potential reason why I would need an anesthesiologist or another specialist to do a certain kind of injection on the kind of really, really, really weak patient.
Yeah. In the severe cases.
Exactly. That's an important note because many patients think like, “Oh yeah, I'm going to get those…”
Yeah. And I think that's important to note is one of the reasons for specializing is you can help a lot of people without specializing. But the really hard cases, you need a specialist and that's why people travel all over Europe to come and see you.
I think so.
Yes. But on that note, right now you are hosting the first Blair Techniques seminar in Europe. And the goal is that people in Norway and Sweden and Spain and England don't have to travel to Belgium to get the help they need. So can you talk a little bit about what motivates you to do this? I've seen you, you've been working super hard. You've been seeing all your patients this week and you've been inviting these doctors and you've been shopping for food for this and making all the arrangements and you've rented tables and spent your own money to get people to come here. So why are you doing all of this?
Well, I don't know. No, it's just the thing I do. And I think you just do where it feels good. So you go where it feels good. So Gordon, so Dr. Elder, your husband, he taught me the Upper Cervical Technique.So it's a really important technique that looks at an articular way, how the craniocervical junction articulates and how it works.
So most of our listeners don't understand any of that. Articulation is the joint, right?
Yeah. Okay, I'll talk it in more simple terms then. So, Dr. Elder, he taught me the approach that I use to treat the Upper Cervical spine. So, his technique. And it's a very particular technique that I think is very nice to walk in and to understand Upper Cervical connection.
So the complexity of the neck is that every single person is made different on the left and the right. Every single person is made different from another person. And so that's what makes the neck so complicated, right? And you have all the nerves and muscles and things like that. So the Blair technique accounts for the fact that every person is different and you can customize.
That's the specialty of Blair. Blair is just a way to treat the Upper Cervical spine. And it takes a lot of an account, the asymmetries within it to make your calculations to perform the best potential adjustment for that one patient. So right now, Gordon is over here teaching for our colleagues in Europe, because the plan is actually to get more of me. Like to get more over cervical specialists and it takes quite a while to get good. So yeah, that's why he's here. So I've been doing a lot of work, but I think I'm very fortunate that you and your husband wanted to travel all this way to come and do something like that cause I think it's more, more generous from your part and from my part.
Well, part of it for me is I'm from Norway originally. And I had to go all the way to the United States and happenstance to get my health back. And I have friends and family members who really need the same kind of help and its not available. My daughter, we had to fly her here to see you.
That's what patients have to do. They have to fly.
So now it's really cool that the first person who signed up for the seminar here today. It's from Norway. Yeah. I'm really happy about that. So can you share like maybe one or two of your most favorite stories that when you think of these people or what happened, that's really what keeps you going.
Yeah. So like patient stories you're asking after. I think it's just a day to day like big changes big miraculous changes are always rock and roll and always really really really cool. But I think for me, it's just a day to day like seeing like how such a small minor correction rechanges whole body posture, body alignment and also changes also like how patients perceive themself afterwards, like I love it when they say like “I can finally sleep better” or “my brain feels fresher there's no more brain fog.” I love it when their headaches goes away and they go like “man I haven't taken a single medication in over three four months.”
Yeah, like that was a big moment for me. The first time I didn't have a headache after 20 or more than 20 years worth of headaches. And that was amazing.
Yeah. I love these cases on my day to day the most, and this is the one that motivates me the most. Now what stimulates me the most are the hardest cases. That's a different thing. So that's what I want to study for. That's what I want to puzzle. That's where I want to go like, “what's happening in this case? Why is this patient feeling X, Y, Z?” And then I try to figure it out and of course, call to my mentor Gordon or talk to some other mentors of mine and I go like, “what do you see on these images or what do you feel like, I should do? What's the neurological complexity behind this? How can I stimulate this better? And then it gets like puzzling and that's like where it's another way of finding really a lot of joy in what I do is because it's like puzzling for details and when you find them and when you fix them, Oh man, these patients are so grateful that you, that you've thought over and over and over on this case and then you figured it out.
So I've discovered that in my own journey because I'm a very complex case and nobody could figure me out until I saw a Blair chiropractor and even then there were complexities. and I can attest to what you said, it's that complexity that has driven my husband who's my doctor to just always learn and be a little bit better and find more answers. There are doctors who's just say, “okay, well I can help who I can help and then I refer the rest out.” But then there's people like you who just want the answer and do whatever it takes to get to the next level.
Yeah. The thing is just what I realized for myself and what motivates me as well is that so many patients are super lost in healthcare systems and I'm talking alternative and medical like it doesn't really matter but they're lost and they don't find people who are willing to fight for them and willing to puzzle for them. And for me, it's really cool when I'm like just like studying and looking and trying to figure out on a difficult case. And then when I find it I go like I have this aha moments and then I can interconnect it with other cases who have like a less significant version of what that difficult patient was I go like whoa now I can test that or now I can challenge that as well and now I can go for it.
Yeah, because you have the scientific framework of knowing how to do that.
Yeah. And especially the scientific questions that I keep on questioning myself.
Okay. So I have one more question. So we've talked from kind of a patient perspective, but here we are talking at the first Blair technique seminar, and we're talking about the DCCJP. It's relatively new in Europe. If there are doctors of chiropractic in Europe listening to this, or maybe chiropractic students, can you speak to them? Why would they want to look into this kind of work?
So I would just say like, for me, I did not understand when I was adjusting a patient on the left side or on the right side or doing a neck left, a neck right, a mid back and a low back and a side joint at the same time on every single visit, like I would say, come see - I saw my new my patients coming back and I would say, “Oh,” with motion palpation, “it feels much better. It's less restricted. That's really good. You can lay down.” And then I would do the same thing all over again. And so for me, that did not resonate with my philosophy and understanding of what we should be doing.
So I like to look at Upper Cervical care more like as in dentistry. The goal is to get rid of infections, get rid of pus, get rid of poor alignments of these teeth, but this time on the back and the neck. And then you recorrect them. By putting kind of braces on there, that's your Upper Cervical correction. It's like just a calculated thing that you're trying to put something else out of place, in place, and keep it in place. And for me, that's a really healthy framework of thinking like that. Because my patients come in, and they are in alignment, out of pain, out of infections, out of irritation, and they just feel good. And if they're out of alignment again, Then I know, “Oh, one of my braces just fell off. I need to realign that.” And then I really see like the pre and the post. And for me, it's just like in my eyes, then I'm acting as if I'm actually a real chiropractor, a real doctor, a real specialist that does like a pre and a post and my patients know what's good and they know what's bad.
It's a traject like, you know, like it's a course like, you know, you're following patients through a trajectory to health and the trajectory should be like being in alignment and being pain free and full of function. Of course, some patients are a little bit difficulter and you can get them like to a 70% reduction rate or something like that. But at least you had a trajectory with them that you would imagine with like A proper specialist with braces following your teeth and then there's a pre and a post and everything looks nice and clean when the braces go off. And so for me, that's why I think why if I would be a student, I would really want to look into that. Upper Cervical chiropractic care is not about the philosophy. There is a part in there, but it's not about the philosophy. It's about the science behind it and the alignments behind it and the calculations behind it. And then suddenly you're like, yeah, you're working towards a goal.
Yeah. I just heard you gave a really neat lecture about all the complexities of the neck. And I feel like even doctors or chiropractors who are not wanting to necessarily practice Upper Cervical need to learn about that stuff in depth.
Yeah, I think the neuropathophysiology behind the craniocervical junction is super important. So understanding how CSF flows, understanding how venous blood goes down, understanding how arterial blood goes up, understanding the ligaments and understanding the soft intra-articular musculature stabilizes the craniocervical junction really makes this whole region super duper complex. And then we haven't even talked about the biomechanics, how everything has been held together. And so that's why I think like for any kind of doctor, therapist, like osteopath, anesthesiologist, a neurologist, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and chiropractor, of course.
And naphropaths.
Naphropaths if you want to like, like maybe energy healers at the same time. Like anybody who's interested in health should actually invest some interest to what's happening between the skull and the neck and how is that region important.
Yeah. Excellent. And I'm not even a doctor, but I love learning about it. I'm so glad I know about it.
Geoff my friend, thank you for being here. I don't know if there's anything I missed like, is there something that you really want to say that I haven't asked you?
Well, I think what you asked me before our conversation is like, what's the goal? What's the plan for the future?
Yes. Go there. Go ahead.
So I'm very fortunate that I have a really nice office with a lecture room at the same time. Like, you know…
You're right. It's an awesome place.
It's pretty all right. I think. And so I really want to provide the center where more and more upper cervical specialists or other specialists, actually, I want to be frank, like, you know, like even some other specialists I would really be interested in having, can come and teach in my office.
Yeah. You have a great space downstairs.
Exactly. So it's really a big space and there is all the materials that we need to also learn techniques. And so the goal is of mine to actually create more and more Upper Cervical Specialists because right now in Europe, we were about 32, 34, I can't remember now, but I think it's around there and there are 6,000 chiropractors in all of Europe. So that means that we are not creating new Upper Cervical Specialists. So in order to do that, we need to create - to have, not to create, to have tutors who are certified to teach a specific technique to come and teach European doctors. And like that you can grow and become eventually certified to teach as well in Europe, but as long as we don't have tutors coming here in Europe, we can't actually grow and create more Upper Cervical chiropractors.
So it's a really hard challenge and it's probably going to take me my whole life, I think. But eventually, like the idea would be like, if we could get more and more technique tutors in Europe who actually know and understand Upper Cervical techniques. I think that we're moving forward.
So what's in the future for you? Maybe be the first technique-certified Upper Cervical teacher in Europe?
In Blair.
In Blair, and then also recruit as many others as you can. Does that sum it up?
Yeah, I think so.
Yeah. All right. Well. It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much. I'm going to let you get back to the lecture. We kind of snuck out at a portion of the lecture that you felt like you knew already.
You have to find the time in between the challenges, but there's always time.
Yes. Thank you so much.
Thank you, Ruth, for having me. Thank you.