EPISODE SUMMARY
Guest: Charmaine Herman, D.C.
Dr. Charmaine Herman is a first-generation Doctor of Chiropractic graduating in 2009 from Sherman College of Chiropractic. Today she a Full Professor in the College of Chiropractic at Life University
Currently, Dr. Herman is a board member for the International Chiropractors Association (ICA) and was awarded a. She is an instructor for the Blair UC Society. Her memberships include the ICA Council on Upper Cervical Care, the American Black Chiropractic Association (ABCA), and the Christian Chiropractic Association.
Some of Dr. Herman’s many awards include:
2016, she was the Blair Chiropractor of the Year.
In 2018, she was recognized as one of the Top Chiropractors in Atlanta by Atlanta Magazine and the Life University Club Advisor of the Year.
2019;, Upper Cervical Researcher of the Year by the ICA Council on Upper Cervical Care2
April 2023 Fellow of the ICA.
In this episode, we cover the following topics:
Dr. Herman’s background and how chiropractic is her third career.
What Chiropractic College is like.
Why adjusting the neck can fix hip problems.
What it means to hold your adjustment. Why it is important to know when not to adjust.
Cultural Competence: the unique challenges of Upper Cervical Chiropractic for people of color and how to serve underserved communities.
The importance of due diligence and going over and beyond in complicated cases.
Chiropractors do some amazing work with children. Among other symptoms, they help with dizziness, Chiari malformation, autism, epilepsy, birth trauma, and difficulty latching.
A call to action to not be afraid of stepping up to get into the healing professions. We need Upper Cervical Doctors all around the world.
To contact Dr. Herman:
Email: agapeuc@gmail.com
Phone: (678)393-8883
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AgapeUCHC/?fref=ts
To contact Ruth, go to https://www.blairclinic.com
ruth@blairclinic.com
https://www.facebook.com/rutelin
Transcript
Welcome, welcome, welcome to what pain in the neck. I am Ruth Elder. And in this podcast episode, I am so pleased to have a guest who I respect so, so much. And to set this in perspective, this doctor in front of me here, she's been the Blair Chiropractor of the year, she's been the Upper Cervical Researcher of the year. Just more recently, you have been a fellow of the International Chiropractic Association, and that's just a few. The list goes on and on. This doctor is as good as they come. And this is Dr. Charmaine Herman.
Hello.
Welcome.
Thank you. Hello. How are you today?
And I will say I know that you are Blair Upper Cervical Chiropractor.
I am.
You're a professor at Life College?
Life University, yes.
Life University. Okay. And I know that a lot of your students just respect you so much. I can hear it.
It's a blessing. I will never complain about all the doors that have opened to me as a doctor of chiropractic when I graduated from Sherman College. I've just been - one thing after the other; it's just been a great journey.
Great. Wonderful. So let's just go right into your story.
Sure.
So, what made you interested in chiropractic?
That is always an important question. I ask my students that question a lot when I have conferences with them. Chiropractic is my third career. I have worked for the Department of Health in South Carolina for 10 years. I started teaching college students in history for about 10 years as well. And, right around, I guess 2004, a very important person in my life, my minister at the time, had horrible hip pain and leg pain. Took her to all kinds of doctors and all they did was give her - give her muscle relaxants and nothing seemed to help. And then one day a nurse actually said, “Have you taken her to a chiropractor?” And I said, “What's that?” I mean, I had a master's degree two bachelor's degrees, and I had no idea what a chiropractor was. So she gave me the card for her chiropractor. So I took her to her chiropractor. After two adjustments two visits, she was up and going again. So I was so amazed by Chiropractic. I had always wanted to be in the health profession. I've gone through many things looking into health professions, starting with a veterinarian, then a pediatrician, and all these things I thought I wanted to do. But so many other things in life got in the way. So when I started, started thinking again about what I was doing, what I wanted to do. Chiropractic was the next thing that just kept popping up and I couldn't let it go. So I thank God for thinking about it. And then when I got to chiropractic school, which is another long journey, I'm not going to get into that, but a Sherman chiropractor actually gave me an application to go to chiropractic school in Sherman.
Okay. So in your case, most people that we talk to here have a story of their health transformed or a loved one in your case. It was a friend of yours.
It was a very important friend. She grew like a second mom to me. So she was very important to my life.
Yeah. Okay. That's great. So what was that transition like here? Here you are, already accomplished with multiple degrees and then going back to school.
That was a challenge all by itself because I was the oldest person in my class. So they - Students tend to call me mom more than as another colleague or student, so I'd hear all their problems and things like that. So I had to realize that this was not me going back to school with my master's degree. This was me at another level, but I also took it more seriously. That was a big thing when I went back to school for chiropractic is that I took my education a lot more seriously than I did in my previous degrees. So I took nothing for granted and took every opportunity that was available for me.
Yeah. So you're a Blair Upper Cervical Chiropractor.
Yes.
So that means that you specialize in the neck and there's no popping, twisting, or jerking, look at imaging to measure. And it's very precise and scientific.
Correct.
Did you go into chiropractic college knowing that that's how you wanted to practice?
I did not. When I entered chiropractic school, I'd never been adjusted. Just, I guess, one time, but I didn't really understand the importance of chiropractic. While I was a student, however, I developed a very chronic hip pain that would not go away. I went to my intern because we get interns as students to check us, adjust us, and things like that. I went to doctors off campus who had graduated, and I still got no relief. Until a Blair chiropractor came on campus to teach the Blair work to students.
Okay, okay. Hold the horses.
I will tell you.
Yeah, so there's your hip is hurting and it's a neck specialist that fixes it.
We already had Blair as an elective on campus, but I was in my earlier quarter. So I couldn't take that class yet. But Dr. Susan taught three sessions of the Blair work. And in the last session, I said, “can I be your patient?” Cause she always demonstrated on someone, the technique. So I, by the third session I was in so much pain. I was actually thinking about quitting chiropractic school because I said I cannot be an advocate for something that's not working on me.
Yeah, no kidding.
Yeah, it's hard to do that. So when Dr. Susan adjusted me that day, During the seminar and rested me after that, the first place I felt heat was in that hip that was hurting so badly. And since we rest patients in the Blair and most Upper Cervical work, when I woke up from my rest after 30 minutes, my hip pain was totally gone.
In 30 minutes?
In 30 minutes. After an adjustment. At the top bone in my neck, which is Atlas. One adjustment and my hip pain went away and I held that adjustment for eight months.
So when you say you held the adjustment it means it didn't go back out and didn’t need anything else?
I didn't go back out anything else. No, I didn't. My interns were like “I can't adjust you everything looks fine”, I said, “Great”. The doctor I used to go to off-campus said, “hey, you look fine. I don't need to adjust you. Everything looks great.” And I had no hip pain for eight months. And even till now, every now and then it'll show up, but that's when I know it's time for another adjustment.
So now that you're accomplished Blair doctor yourself, can you explain how that works?
Well, in the Blair work and most Upper Cervical work, what we see is that because the Atlas and the upper cervical spine is so in respect to the brainstem. And the brainstem has everything to do with our body's balance, and proprioception, which means how we feel ourselves in space. So, when getting my neck adjusted, my hip actually had pulled out of alignment because my neck was out of alignment, because the muscles tightened on one side, pulling my hip out of alignment, which is why it kept hurting me. Once you have the adjustment at the top of your neck, at Atlas, or even Axis, the muscles begin to reorganize themselves and relax, and relax the hip. So the hip pain, all the muscles that are pulling it in one way relaxed and allowed my hip to go back in the proper place, so the pain went away. So as long as my neck stays in alignment, I don't have any pain in my hip. And other patients that I see have pain in their knees, in their ankles, in their mid back, in their shoulders. But once their neck is in alignment, all the muscles begin to relax. And those tiny trigger points, which our body develops to kind of help balance us, start to relax as well. So the pain also goes away.
So I want to point out, since there's no video. This is just audio and it may not be obvious. That you are a woman of color.
I am.
And that increases my respect for you because I know that you have got to have had challenges because of that.
Well, you know, people ask me that and I do have - I have seen from time to time challenges whether through patients accepting you because of the way you look or through even people taking you seriously. Because just being a woman alone is one factor, but being a woman of color is a whole other factor. So people taking you seriously when you talk to them. Like, “are you credible? Do you really understand what you're talking about? What is your education? What is your background? How do you know this information?” So I'm always thankful and I'm a Christian. So I thank God for those opportunities to explain to people that “yes, I am a doctor of chiropractic. I am a woman of color and I love what I do. And I understand what I, and I teach others how to do what I do on a regular basis.”
Yeah. So I'm looking around at this conference here, the Blair annual conference, and let's just say that you are in the extreme minority, is that fair to say?
That's fair to say. And as I say it has often been.
Yeah, so what can we do to change that?
In 2016, I did a presentation for the Blair Society saying that we have to be better at reaching underserved minorities as doctors of chiropractic, especially in the Blair technique. Because people of color who hear about chiropractic, people of other minorities who hear about chiropractic, only hear about it in reference to “I was in an automobile accident, so I have to go to a chiropractor so I can get my insurance check. Otherwise, they won't pay for this because I haven't been to a chiropractor.” My father himself had been to many chiropractors. Not one had ever told him about bringing his family, his children. So I said, “no one I ever told you about that?” So we as a society have to do better with educating our communities, going out into our communities, visiting schools, visiting colleges, going and telling people what we do, not just to get new patients, but just to spread Upper Cervical Chiropractic period. Because it's such a - we are a minority profession. In the chiropractic profession 5 percent of chiropractors are quote-unquote Upper Cervical Chiropractors. So as that minority, we have a stronger push to reach other people and not just people that look like us. But people that don't look like us because we want to serve communities that don't look like us. I also teach cultural competence at Life University and that's the other thing I talk about, having pamphlets that have multi-generational multi-racial people on your pamphlets, in your website. On the Blair website, there are only white men and there's nothing else there. On our pamphlets, they only represent white people. And we do a bad job of actually showing people that they are included. We are not just exclusive, but we are including all of us. If you want to be a doctor of chiropractic, if you want chiropractic care, it doesn't matter who you are. And a lot of people get that position that we only look for certain types of patients. And only certain types of doctors can go from chiropractic school to become an Upper Cervical or Blair chiropractor.
Yeah, and I agree with you. I see that problem in this profession. And do you have some suggestions for how do we change that? What are some of the solutions?
Change the website. Add people of color to the website, our pamphlets, our brochures. I have brochures in my office that only have caucasian people. And caucasian children, I see children all the time, but parents don't realize that their children are included also. So change our paraphernalia, our brochures, our information, and get it into other communities. Not just the communities where we want to serve, but how about the other communities that need to be served? Also partner with other chiropractors who don't look like us. I mean, I partner with other chiropractors who are of different - Hispanic, White. We have partnerships. I call them and contact them. They send patients to me. I send patients to them. Build those type of relationships in the chiropractic community with other chiropractors. So they know that I'm here. We're here. Send me your patients in underserved communities where there may not be many chiropractors. Go to those areas. Volunteer your time. See what the community needs, even as far as the Departments of Health in your community. If you go to the Department of Health, they'll tell you the communities that are underserved. And you can actually visit those communities and be a help to them. Just to volunteer your time so they see your face. And know that you're there.
That's really good advice. It doesn't exactly follow. But in your work as a university professor. So you're teaching university. And you have a private practice. How do you balance that? And what is your focus in each one?
Well, I have to give kudos and praise for my husband. Because he is a big part of me balancing everything. I'm also married almost 18 years.
So he went through chiropractic school with…
He did not, he's not a chiropractor.
No, but he went through chiropractic school with you.
When we got married when I was in my second year. So he knew how, what I went through. He is, actually engineered by profession, but he has been with me every step of the way. He is also now a pastor. And so we have a ministry as well. So I have people that I also serve in ministry as well. So he helps me to keep balance and focus. You know, we have our time of prayer every morning and he helps organize my day. He fixes my lunch so I can go to school. And then I can just focus on school. He takes all my appointments, takes the payments in the office so I can focus when I'm at work at the office just on my patients. So he's been a big help to me. I thank God so much for him. I don't know how I would balance it if I didn't have him in my life just helping me stay organized and focused. He'll remind me, “you have a message, you have an email you didn't answer. Check your emails. You got some things to go to.” “Okay. All right.” Ge always keeps me focused and I'm so thankful for that. Without that help, that partner, I don't know how I would be able to do all that. I do.
He's in your corner.
It does matter. It makes a big difference. I always tell my students, know who's on your side because a lot of people jump on for the ride, but they may not be on your side. Having the right person in your corner, on your side, who's working with you and sees your best interest at heart. They're the person that you want to rely on and let help you through the process because we're not individuals. We are, we can't do it by ourselves though. I have so many students who try to do everything by themselves. I said, “we are here to help you. Come see somebody. Come talk to somebody. If you're, we have counselors, we have faculty. If you need help, you can't do this by yourself.” Same thing in practice. I know Dr. Elder can't do anything that he does without you helping him also. So it's the importance of having someone on your side working with you and understanding your struggle.
Yeah. We help each other is the truth.
It makes a big difference. So that I have to say that. So when I'm at school, I'm focused on school. When I'm at my practice, I'm focused on my practice and a lot of it tends to flow together because some of my students come to see me in practice. So I get to talk to them while they see me or they come shadow me in practice to see what I do. So I'm thankful because it all has flowed together and worked together and I would never complain for the journey I've been on. I'm just so thankful for it.
Okay, so we focused a little bit about some problems that we see and some things that we - opportunities for improving still more, but in the years that you have been teaching college and practicing the Blair chiropractic technique in your office, what are some of your wins? Some great stories. I know that you change lives everyday. So, what are some of your stories that you want to share?
One of my big stories I always think back to was a 12 year old girl that came to my office from North Carolina. That's a four hour drive to my office from\her family brought her there with severe headache and neck pain. And she'd had it for about three months. It was steadily getting worse. It wasn't getting any better. Other doctors didn't see a problem and they didn't know why she was having that problem. And after seeing her - her first adjustment. The pain decreased by half. It came down the next week, the second adjustment, she was able to finally sleep. Her heart rate had decreased. The dizziness had gone away. Everything that she was experiencing, her parents were just so thankful because they were having their daughter back. So she felt great and, but the key here was after that third visit and she was doing fine, I thought about releasing her cause she was doing fine and it's a long distance. But what happened was on their way home, they got into a car accident.
Oh no.
On I-85 heading back up to North Carolina. And they called me from the site, said “she was in a lot of pain”. I said, “bring her back down”. We have Sunday afternoon hours. So they brought her back down that Sunday. Happened on a Friday. And she had a total brain strain. All of her information that I had once addressed was now switched to the opposite side. So everything was changed. So I saw her a few more times after that, but she was not getting as well as she could have, I saw the first few times. And I was really concerned it might have been another problem. Her mother also said she started getting very unbalanced and having issues walking in the house, bumping into things. So I recommended that they get an MRI for her. And the parents at first didn't want to do it. But I said, if it's what I think it is, we need an MRI to determine that's what it was. So she went for the MRI. We didn't see them for about two weeks and my husband finally called and said, “well, everything okay?” And when he called they were actually in the hospital. When I talked to the dad on the phone, he said, “yes, you are right”. Because I thought I saw what was called a Chiari malformation is where the spinal cord changes because of the cerebellum. He said, “you were right. She did have that. But what she also had was a tumor. That was pushing her cerebellum down into her spinal cord, which is why she was having all those issues.” So they airlifted her after the MRI for emergency surgery and thank God it was a benign tumor and she was fine. A few weeks after that, a little bit of physical therapy, she was back on her feet and going again and they brought her back down to see me and I found no problems when I checked her and I didn't even have to adjust her that day. That's my biggest story because I'm so thankful that I did all what I was supposed to do - my diligence to go through all the tests that I had to perform and look for the problems and not just assume because a patient's not in pain, they're okay. But there are other factors that we teach in chiropractic school, exams that we have to perform to determine if there's more. And I'm glad I did the more. And had made the recommendation for that girl to get what she needed. That's one of my biggest stories that I'm always thankful for.
I have one more which is a four year old autistic little boy that was nonverbal and he came into the office his mom said, “you know I've tried a lot of things he goes to speech therapy and everything else but he's got autism, it developed after he had his shots when he was two.” And his mom was a nurse practitioner so she understood all the ramifications of what was happening to him. And when I got him in the office at first he could not be responsive without his mom's cell phone. So when I got him in the room I'd have to give him the cell phone so I could adjust him. And I only adjust Atlas.
The Atlas being the top bone in the neck.
Yes, I only adjusted that initially, also adjusted sacrum, which is important because it maintains that balance in our nervous system to have both areas adjusted. And he came for one, two, three, four weeks and each week it was a little bit better. He went from not sleeping at night, getting up three o'clock in the morning to finally sleeping and getting up like the other children, that was a big one because she had two other children. And he also started becoming better in school sitting still. He also started noticing his mom more. When she would leave the house, he'd start running behind her. He never did that before. And then finally, when they were leaving, he was trying to reach for something on one of my counters and he said, “help me”. And I said, “did he say help me?” She said, “yes, he started saying that a few days ago”. So he asked his mom to help him. And he started speaking. So last time I saw him, he always said, he would say bye. But now he was really saying bye. So I could understand. And he'd also do a high five. I said give me a high five and he'd always give me a high five. But now he was actually verbalizing the word bye. So just seeing that change in his life and how it's changed his mom and his family - his entire family was totally changed. Cause I also was able to adjust his two sisters as well. And one wasn't even walking. And after the adjustment, she started walking that evening. Her mom was totally shocked. So just seeing those changes in people's lives and adults, as well as children's lives. It's been amazing to me.
Yeah. At this conference this weekend, you are teaching the doctors, the pediatric -
Yes. Yes, that's one of my favorites.
Yes. So you just gave us some stories there.
I love children.
Yes. And I was a child that was extremely sickly and I didn't have a normal childhood. And it wasn't until I saw a Blair chiropractor as an adult that I finally started healing. But I'm thinking, you know, if my parents knew a Blair chiropractor, which they didn't, when I was four, my life would be so different. So what is your advice to parents?
You know, there's a lot of research out there that shows that chiropractic helps children, much less Upper Cervical Chiropractor. And I would tell parents, don't be afraid.
So should I wait until my child is dizzy, or not speaking, or not sleeping, or having some problem?
No. No, you should start immediately after birth, because the birthing process causes trauma to the cervical spine. The twisting and the turning to extract the child from the uterus causes a lot of misalignments in the neck, and then most people don't know about them until they develop problems like colic, difficulty sleeping. I think I had one patient, the baby could not turn their head to suckle on the left side. So one adjustment and she breastfed the baby right there in my office on the left side. So I mean, little things like that that you don't think about. My other one, they thought the baby had epilepsy, and it wasn't, it was birth trauma. He had a severe trauma when he was born. And it really changed the alignment in his neck, but after starting to adjust that, he's a perfectly healthy nine year old boy today. So all of those things, parents, don't be afraid. Chiropractic is amazing. You want their nervous system to operate at its optimum. Why not start when they're just born? When they first come out, get them adjusted. It's a simple adjustment for children. No one twists and turns the neck of children. It's just a little bit of pressure added to Atlas.
It's just like a little tap. They don't even know what anything happened.
They have no clue, but when you adjust them, you can feel them relax. And they'll even look at you. I have a three-year-old, and whenever I adjust her, she stops and looks at me and smiles after the adjustment. She just always tells me that I got it. And she just smiles at me. And so, you know so they know it, they feel it themselves. My nine-year-old, he told his parents, “I need to see Dr. Herman”. He tells his parents when he needs to get adjusted. And when he comes in, he's absolutely right. He needs to be adjusted. So, yeah. seeing children, parents don't be afraid. Chiropractors, we do some amazing work with children.
Yeah. And, I'm just going to again underline what you said, just because of my story. And I know that because my injury happened when I was really, really young, too young to remember it. And it wasn't fixed until I was an adult. I now have permanent damage that can't be undone. But if it had been corrected when I was a young child, it would have just been a little blip in the road. Instead, I was, you know, I had 20 years that were more or less lost as a normal child and teenager and young adult, because it wasn't corrected.
And because some people don't know anything about chiropractic, much less Upper Cervical Chiropractic.
Yeah. And all of that could be avoided.
Definitely. Yeah, definitely. So it's great to bring your child to a chiropractor.
Yeah. So go ahead. And if you have any questions about that, call me or maybe call Mr. Herman.
He'll answer the phone and answer. He talks chiropractic better than I do. He always does. He can answer all those questions for my patients.
I'm sure he can. Dr. Herman, what do you wish that I had asked you - that you wish that every single person would know, and if I'd only asked you X, Y, and Z, the answer is?
Don't be afraid to step out beyond the medical system and get the help you need. That's the question I wish people would want to know. Why chiropractic? And I tell them because medicine can't do everything. It's great for emergencies. It's great for managing certain things, but your body system works better when your nervous system functions at its optimum. And medicines can't help it do that. There's nothing that can help your nervous system, brain, and spinal cord function like it should without a good chiropractic Upper Cervical adjustment. So don't be afraid. Step out and see someone near you. Upper Cervical is amazing.
And then I have one more follow-up question, and that is for a person who wants to get involved in health care, you said you had a desire in your heart to do health care and you had degrees already and you were the oldest in your class. And whether you're thinking about changing careers or a person that is changing careers or wants to get started in that career, no matter what background, what is your advice? So like, for instance, in my case, I didn't speak really good English when I came to this country and my health wasn't the best. And so in my case, I've been more like your husband working kind of in a support role, even though really in my heart, I did want to be a doctor, but I just never really took that step.
I tell people it’s never too late. We currently have a student that is 76 years old.
Oh my goodness.
Going through our chiropractic program.
Okay. What is my excuse?
And she's been an educator, a massage therapist,and now she wants to be a chiropractor having worked with chiropractors. So that's what she's going - She's 76 years old. She's our oldest student through the program halfway through right now.Yes, so I tell people there is no excuse. There's no age difference most chiropractic colleges have assistance for you - help can give you different type of accommodations if you need more time to study something and take exams. There are things that can be done for anyone that wants to come back to school. I'm glad I took that step and I knew I needed to, and when you're not happy in a job, I wasn't happy in my job. I knew I wanted to do something more. And when chiropractic came to me, I would say God brought it, to be honest, on a platter. I knew, I knew I needed to take that step. And actually I had to work for a year because I had a home and everything else to get finances and everything organized. And I lived on campus, which was 92 miles from my home. So my home was being taken care of by my same minister. She would take care of my house while I was at school and I had an apartment on campus. But everyone helped and worked together to help me get through the program. All the schools have scholarship programs, there's no excuse. If it's what you want to do, the sky's the limit. Don't be afraid to step out. The only thing that stops us is fear. That's the only -and it's a false illusion. Don't be afraid. Walk, take that step, go to chiropractic school, go into healthcare, do whatever that - I have a patient now, she's going into nursing. She's 47 years old. She said, “I always wanted to be a nurse”. And now she's just got into nursing school. And she said, “I don't care. I finally get to do what I want to do”. Don't let anything stop you.
So, you had this desire to help people with their health and to do more. Do you feel like you've done that with the changes that you've made?
I think I have. I mean, I talk a lot - my husband and I, we talk about retirement because I think I've done a lot and I'm thankful for the things that I've done but I think the next generation needs to take up the mantle and move forward. Because we tend to want to do things for the rest of our lives. I don't want to be a chiropractor all my life. I want to see younger people take up my mantle. And move forward. And I can be there as an advisory position to help them to move forward. So yeah, I think it's important to keep going and doing things, but not in the same capacity. We have to know when it's time to let someone else step in. And we just mentor and strengthen them and help them move forward. So no, I don't want to do this for the rest of my life. I want to see younger people come up and do this. And I help them in the process.
Which is what I see you're doing. You're pouring yourself into people so they can be the best that they can be. And I am currently working with some chiropractors that want to teach Blair in Europe. And I talked to, actually, a guy in Norway. And he said, “I heard about this”, and guess who he contacted?
Me.
It was you! So I'm talking to, I'm getting all excited, saying, “finally someone is interested in the Blair Technique in Norway”.
We had quite a few email interactions.
And that is your reach, your influence reaches all the way to Norway. And I'm sure much further all over the place.
II'm thankful. I'm just so thankful. I had someone call me from Argentina. I saw you on YouTube. “I want to come see you”. I said “we have someone in Brazil. Please go see our Blair chiropractor in Brazil. He's closer to you than me”. So yeah, I don't like people to have to come.
But we do need someone in Argentina.
We do need someone.
And Norway.
And Norway. We need them all everywhere. We just need - I'm glad that they're getting excited about it. Because people need help and all over the world people need to be helped. Thank you for asking that.
All right. Well, thank you so much for your time and your inspiration and just sharing your love with us.
Thank you for asking me to do this, Ms. Elder. I've done one or two podcasts and I'd like to be able to send this message further. So what you're doing is so important, getting podcasts out, taking the time to put out what we do. So more and more people can have that reach. So thank you so much.
Yeah, I agree because we don't know what we don't know. And if we decide, okay, this sounds interesting, but it's not for me, we can always make that decision. But. If you don't know, you don't have that freedom.
Yes, ma'am. That's exactly right. Thank you again for all you do.
Thank you. Is there anything we have missed?
I think we hit everything on the nail today.
Okay. That's great. We'll end it there.
Thank you.