EPISODE SUMMARY
Guest: Dr. Perry Rush
In this special interview, you will hear from one of the great pioneers of the Blair Upper Cervical Technique.
How he decided to be a chiropractor after attending a health lecture, he didn’t really want to attend but thought he needed to. He started chiropractic care with his mentor Dr. R. Weldon Muncy in Lancaster, CA, despite having no symptoms and being a weight training champion.
What is Straight Chiropractic?
Dr. Rush graduated from Sherman College of Chiropractic during a time when few States allowed graduates from this college to get a license to practice Chiropractic. Due to this, he was not able to practice with Dr. Muncy or Dr. Blair.
All Dr. Rush wanted was to practice chiropractic and see lots of patients, but Dr. Reggie Gold and Drs recruited him. Betty and Thom Gelardi to teach the Blair Upper Cervical Technique. Dr. Rush agreed and gave up his dream of full-time chiropractic practice.
To contact Ruth, go to https://www.blairclinic.com
ruth@blairclinic.com
TRANSCRIPT
Can I really tell the story of how this happened?
Yes, please do. I was hoping you would do that. Yes.
Welcome to What Pain In The Neck Podcast. Today I am recording this in Spartanburg, South Carolina and I am so honored to sit across the table from a person that I have heard about and had on a pedestal, so to speak, the legendary Dr. Perry Rush. I have heard so many wonderful things about him for more than 30 years, but I just met him for the first time yesterday and he has agreed to share some of his stories with us today. Thank you.
Thank you for doing this. I guess it's really an honor. I don't feel so legendary. I just feel I'm part of a chiropractic story that was amazing. I got to have experiences that I never thought that I would have because I never saw myself as being a chiropractor.
What happened?
Here's the story. I was a competitive weightlifter back when I was in college. I had broken eight college weightlifting records and I had the push up record at my college and I was getting all of the help I needed from a lady who had eight children. She actually told me that two of those children had been saved by chiropractic care when medical doctors were not able to solve those problems. I knew that they were into chiropractic. One day she asked me what I was going to do with my life.
I was over at their house all the time weightlifting there because the husband had been an Indiana State weightlifting champion and he had a weightlifting room and this was helping me prepare for all the weightlifting competitions and physical stuff that I was doing at my college. I was eating their food and constantly in their house. One day she said, what do you know about chiropractic? I said I didn't know anything. I didn't know what a chiropractor was. She said, II would like to send you over to listen to Dr. Muncy in Southern California. I'd like you to listen to a health talk that he gives on chiropractic."
I didn't really want to go but I couldn't say no because I was always eating their ice cream and their watermelon and being in their house. I really felt like I better go. I went over there and her boys, who I had a great time with, her family, the boys told me this is going to be boring. I thought, "Oh, no," but I went over there and I was absolutely totally impressed with what Dr. Muncy was telling me about the body and the nervous system and how bones can misalign and things like that happen. To me it made so much sense. I was a pre-med major at the time. I decided that was very interesting.
What was it that made sense to you and what particularly impressed you?
In the pharmaceutical world we're always giving and dispensing drugs. If you take pharmacy and medicine and the way they usually approach things, and I was pre-med major, it just didn't make a lot of sense to be treating symptoms all the time and not getting at the cause of a problem. Dr. Muncy explained to us that if you look at the brain and you look at the nervous system and you look at the spinal cord, spinal column, that sometimes a vertebra can be misaligned, interfere with the ability of the body to communicate from brain to body. If a misalignment occurs you can develop all kinds of symptoms. That was interesting to me. That's where it started.
He got me under chiropractic care, didn't charge me anything for the x-rays he took because he saw me as a potential student going back to chiropractic college, I think. As I would go to his office, and he had a phenomenal office, oh my goodness. He had people coming from three or four different states away. He was highly recommended in the area by certain people and certainly by Betty Clevinger who was the lady who referred me to chiropractic. It was just a phenomenal way for me to be introduced by sitting in his office one day waiting for my appointment time. I'm listening to other people talk about all the miracles that had happened in their lives. I was blown away. These ladies would walk in, not know each other and why are you here? I was sitting there listening to these miracle stories.
Similar thing happened to me is what got us into this work is I not only heard the miracle stories, but I worked as an assistant. I saw the transformation in people's lives.
I found out that you worked in Dr. Muncy's office and that's where I was introduced to chiropractic. I was just blown away that I had somebody in my house that was from the office where I was introduced to chiropractic. Ruth, it was a great honor to meet you.
Mutual admirations in society. I liked it. We just met yesterday but I felt like our hearts were instantly knit together. I felt the same when I started working there. Just all the things that people got better from that I had no idea had anything to do with chiropractic at all.
Dr. Muncy, I didn't know this at the time but he was an upper cervical specific chiropractor. He worked mainly on the upper neck. I was very interested in how important that very top vertebra is to the rest of the spine.
It's so great segue. Why is the upper neck so important? What if I have back pain or I struggle with heart disease or blood pressure, why the neck?
It's very interesting when you start to study the spinal column how the very top segment is the lightest weight segment there is. It has the most motion to allow for head turning and looking up, looking down, looking sideways. There has to be a lot of motion there. That very top segment as it fits underneath the skull is not nearly as well protected as the vertebrae as you continue going down the spine. There are locked in place by invertible locks and mechanisms that hold it in its position, et cetera, et cetera.
In the upper neck to allow for the motion that we have to have that top vertebra is the easiest vertebra to misalign should you have an accident, a fall, a car accident, bicycling, anything like that is possible for that vertebra to be slightly misaligned. Guess what, when it's misaligned it puts pressure on the brainstem. You've got the brain that coordinates and controls all parts and aspects of the body and every function we have and it's trying to communicate with the rest of the body. It's got to go right down through that frame and magnum, that large hole in the base of the skull, and through the vertebra.
Thank you for explaining that.
If a vertebra misaligns there it puts pressure at the most vulnerable point in the whole body relative to being able to interfere with nerve function to the rest of the body from the brain. If that happens a number of things begin to occur. When you have a vertebra misalign at the top segment it doesn't just misalign and effect that area there. The body says wait a minute, this vertebra has side slipped. The body wants to control that side slip a little bit so it's going to make a little alteration in the curve in that area. A misalignment of the top vertebra research has proven time and time again creates a compensation or compensatory curving of the spine in that area to help that area compensate for what's going on. If there's a curve created in the upper neck area then the thoracic spine that is the vertebrae that are--
That's the middle?
Yes, in the middle, they will begin to adapt to the curve above them. Then when that happens, the lumbar vertebra and this is all done through the coordination of the brain, it begins to shift the pelvis and pretty soon one pelvis rides high and rotates on one side. Then you walk around and you don't know it but you've got one leg shorter than the other. Over a period of time those muscles get tired of compensating. You can have low back pain created as a result from a misalignment in the upper neck.
You can adjust or thrust on that lower spine misalignment and you can create relief in a lot of people. Guess what, if the origin of the problem is still there, if you haven't corrected that top vertebral misalignment, all of those compensations are going to come back again. You can get thrusted on and feel wonderful in the thoracic spine, the middle of the spine, the lower spine, the pelvis. You can get great relief a lot of times, but if you don't get rid of the origin of the problem, it keeps coming back. That's why people see great relief oftentimes with various types of approaches. Unless and until you can adjust that top segment in the spine, these things keep being created over and over again.
If a person can have the ability to analyze a vertebral misalignment in that area and properly adjust it, you see awesome things begin to happen pretty soon, then that compensatory curve in the neck goes away. Then the compensatory curve in the middle goes away, and then the spine and the pelvis. It's rather amazing what can happen. It's always a good thing to go and get your spine checked. I went in and got my spine checked when I didn't even know I had a chiropractic problem. I was a competitive weightlifter. I was a varsity wrestler. I felt wonderful. When Dr. Muncie took those X-rays on me, later when I looked at those X-rays, I thought that there was a misalignment of that top segment. It moved anterior, superior and to the left.
Okay, what does that mean?
It means that that vertebra simply moved in a direction that was causing a nerve pinch, and it moved in a direction that Dr. Muncie could adjust it because he's had his X-rays to tell him what was going on. When he adjusted it, I felt no change whatsoever because I had no symptoms whatsoever. As a result of that, I was holding my adjustment for several years at a time because he caught me early enough that there weren't those adaptations that the body then has to overcome over the years.
Yes, a good point. You got it taken care of before you felt symptoms, and it helped you.
It helped immensely. I've seen patients come in and that have had problems. I can look at their X-rays and see if they've had problems for years and years. There will be spinal adaptations. There will be spinal-- not only spinal curvatures, but degeneration of discs and bone. It's been amazing to me that some of those hard cases that I would think would never be able to respond quickly sometimes have responded so quickly it amazes me, and others that took a lot longer to respond as they should have.
Why don't you tell some of your favorite patient stories, transformations, some of your most favorite things that you've seen as a doctor.
I can tell you it first started with what I saw happen with my dad. I had gone off to college, several hundreds of miles away from California. Rick's College in-- where was that? That was in Idaho. While I was up there I was talking on the phone to my parents, who would call me from time to time, and I found out something that surprised me. Dad was going to medical doctors, dermatologists, specialists in Los Angeles on Friday afternoons. He was a lead electrician at Northrop Aircraft Company, and he had a skin rash or disease that was bothering him so much, itching like crazy, and it was nonstop.
He was going to these medical doctors and specialists who were giving him shots, giving him medications, and dad wasn't getting better after six months, and this was the first I'd heard that. I said, "Dad, I know you're telling me that you're getting worse under this care, but I went to a Dr. Muncy heard a health talk one time, and I think that he has a lot he may be able to offer, but you won't know until you go let him check you out." Dad trusted my advice, went into Dr. Muncie, got an adjustment, and as I tell people, so what do you think happened to him within his first month of care?
Students and other people always say, "Oh, he got better." I say, "No, he didn't feel a bit different. He couldn't tell that anything had happened." It actually took about two months from that one or two adjustments that he got before he began this problem that he'd had going to the medical doctors, completely cleared up, but it was not just that. Dad and I didn't know this, but dad had migraine headaches for years, and they were the kind that would only come maybe once a month or every so often, but it would lay him out flat. He wouldn't be able to function or work. I had no idea that that had been going on.
Oh, my goodness.
Those things went away as well. It took time, but just very few adjustments, but then these things began to really show up and clear out. That was very impressive to me, and, of course, all the stories I heard when I was sitting in Dr. Muncy's office. Then I become a chiropractor. Can I really tell the story of how this happened?
Yes, please do. I was hoping you would do that.
[chuckles] How does Dr. Muncy- after going to Dr. Muncy, I went to another chiropractor in town. He was a chiropractic physician. He graduated from Western States Chiropractic College, but he did not like Dr. Muncy or Dr. Muncy's approach at all. This was a chiropractor, and he had me into his office, and I was watching him for all morning long adjust his patients, and he would put them on a table and see through gowns that were very embarrassing to me. Then he would start adjusting people crack their neck this way, crack their neck that way, adjust practically every vertebra in the spine and then the pelvis. Then he would do that every time they would come in. The thing was, when he found out that I had been to Dr. Muncy who spends most of his time just in the upper neck area and just taking upper cervical adjustments or upper neck adjustments--
Also, most of the visits, he did nothing at all.
Yes. People would go into Dr. Muncy haven't had an adjustment the visit before. He would check them, and when they came in and say, "Hey, there's no evidence of nerve interference." Even if that patient came in with some symptoms, he would not touch them. Oftentimes, when a patient would get adjustment as I found out in my office over years and years of chiropractic, when people get an upper cervical adjustment, almost always within one week's time, they feel something positive going on. Unlike my dad, who took two months before he began showing this thing.
Yes, but back to the story of the guy who did something a lot of things every time.
He really railed on Dr. Muncy and said, "How can Dr. Muncy be helping people if he's only adjusting one vertebrae in the spine? He doesn't even take full spine X-rays. How is he going to know if there's changes in the spine? I got very confused with that. It confused me so much that I decided I wasn't interested in chiropractic anymore. That's how confused I got. Later that evening, doctor-- I won't mention his name, but this doctor invited me into his home.
To him, it was more about what chiropractic could do for the chiropractor. He showed me his beautiful home, in the back and this is in the desert in Palmdale, California he had a pool, a beautiful pool in the backyard with the chiropractic emblem emblazoned on the bottom of the pool. Now, when I'd been to Dr. Muncy, Dr. Muncy never, not then and not ever did he ever talk to me about what chiropractic could do for the chiropractor. He never talked to me about money. It was always, what can chiropractic do for the patient? Now, I remembered that.
I went off to school and left that until I got the phone call from my dad and my mom, and I found out that dad really needed to go see a chiropractor in my mind, and I referred them to Dr. Muncy. Then Dad's story begins to happen and stuff like that. I still was not really entertaining the idea of going back to chiropractic college. When I got back from school, mom said, "Dr. Muncy called. He wants to take you out to eat." I'm all for that. [chuckles] Dr. Muncy wants to take me out. Mexican food. I love it. I went out and, simply, Dr. Muncy talked to me about this new chiropractic college that was starting up in South Carolina. Whereas, I had been thinking about going back to the fountainhead of chiropractic, which was Davenport, Iowa. I--
That's where Dr. Muncy went to school.
Yes, that's where Dr. Muncy went. Things were changing in the chiropractic profession, and it seemed like those chiropractors were controlling the state boards and the national boards who did not believe in upper neck chiropractic or upper cervical chiropractic and that it was really-- most chiropractors looked upon upper cervical chiropractic as being incomplete. People who just weren't caring about the rest of the spine and things like that. Chiropractic was really shutting down to the opportunity for a person to go and get to upper cervical chiropractic care. There was this college in South Carolina where that was the intent.
Dr. Sherman, who was the assistant to BJ Palmer, the developer of chiropractic, he moved to South Carolina and Dr. Gillardi, who later started Sherman College of Chiropractic he followed him down here, and it was the idea and intent. Dr. Gillardi did not want the time to come when his kids couldn't walk into a chiropractic office and get an upper cervical adjustment if they needed it. The profession was moving in a direction that they were diagnosing diseases and treating symptoms. You would not be able to walk into a chiropractor's office later and get just straight, unadulterated chiropractic adjustments, and that worried them.
The college was started here and Dr. Muncy was wanting to refer me to that kind of a chiropractic college. That's how it started. He said, "Sherman College is starting in Spartanburg, South Carolina, and I think that's a good place for you to go." Now, I had already determined that I really wasn't interested in becoming a chiropractor, but the minute he suggested that Sherman College was starting in South Carolina, I just automatically assumed that I was going to go and he did too.
Do you have any idea why that was?
I think because Dr. Muncy”s message and his caring so much about patients just reverberated with me. I think that was still stuck in my head. Seeing what happened to my dad, all of a sudden, I knew I was going to go there. That's where I went. By the way, dad bought me a car for $150. It used a quart of oil every 75 miles. I drove across the United States to a place I had never been before, didn't know where I was going to stay, had no other money to pay for rent or room and board or really much more than a few days of food. I was really trusting that things were going to work out and they did. Things worked out and I became a chiropractor. When I graduated from Sherman College, I hightailed it back to Southern California.
This is interesting because you had some really difficult hardships after that.
Well, I'm not sure which hardships you're talking about.
You have a positive outlook, but we were talking about how difficult it was yesterday. This is what I grew up hearing. Remember we were talking about how I had heard stories about you long before and we met now.
I can get to some of those difficulties, I guess.
Yes. Please do.
I came to Sherman College then I went back out for some informal postgraduate work for two years. I worked at Northrop Aircraft company as a maintenance person and stayed with my parents. I was married and had a son.
Why didn't you go out and make money doing chiropractic?
We only had two or three states that were open to chiropractors to practice. Dr. Muncy was in California.
That came from Sherman.
Yes, that came from Sherman College. Thank you. They weren't allowing Sherman graduates to get in. Dr. Blair, the chiropractor who invented the Blair Chiropractic work that Dr. Muncy practiced, he invited me into his practice. I couldn't get into the state of Texas. We had to struggle getting into-- state boards were just not open to Sherman College. It was a battle that we fought at Sherman College forever having the money and the funds to keep that straight upper cervical chiropractic open. Now, I've used the word straight and I don't know if people understand that. Do they? Do your guess.
I don't know that that is not something that most people would know.
To be a chiropractor and just practice chiropractic without treating diseases and bringing in equipment that would treat those diseases, straight chiropractic was just a methodology of just giving straight, pure, unadulterated chiropractic without diagnosing diseases and treating diseases as many boards were wanting us to do.
But people come to a chiropractor because they have a disease usually.
Yes, and they all do.
How does that work?
When you go into a chiropractor's office who's a straight chiropractor, if a person came into my office and they came because they heard that I got rid of headaches in a patient and that patient referred them to me, then I would go ahead and examine their spine, find out if they had misalignments that were creating problems. If they did, I would identify those. Then I would tell them, "Before we ever took the first set of x-rays, now, there's something you need to know. I know that somebody who referred you in here, we had marvelous results with their headaches or their low back pain, or their whatever it was."
I'd say, "I never treated that headache. I never treated that low back pain. My job was to ascertain whether they had a misalignment that was putting pressure on the spinal cord and to get rid of that pressure. Whether or not your headache is being caused by that or by the new paint in your house that you just moved into, I don't know, but I know that there's a nerve interference. I can get rid of that nerve interference and then the body is able to function properly and do what it needs to do and that is my only function here." Again, I don't know if the headaches are caused by these problems, but I know you have nerve interference and I'll tell you this.
If you have nerve interference up there near the brainstem, there is no way that your body can be healthy when many of those nerve impulses going from the brain to the rest of the body to communicate properly, if they're interfered with, this needs to be gotten rid of or pretty soon you are going to show up with major problems. These major problems may show up as kidney disease or if the kidneys are not getting proper function because of nerve interference, what happens to those kidneys over a period of time, or the heart or the liver or the spleen or the pancreas or muscles in your back or neck or whatever."
I made those things clear and it made a lot of sense to people. Then when they'd get their first chiropractic adjustment, I would tell them, "Now, look, when you come in again, I'm going to look at your spine. If you have nerve interference, I will adjust you again, but if you don't, even if you have some of those original symptoms there, I will not touch you." A patient would come in and--
That is straight chiropractic.
That's straight chiropractic not treating the symptoms. Adjusting only when there's evidence of nerve compression, and boy, you better know how to ascertain whether they have nerve interference or not. Lest how is a chiropractor actually going to know that he shouldn't touch that patient on this next visit when they come in with some of those same symptoms? It becomes very important that you be educated in knowing how to properly analyze and properly adjust the spine when it's necessary. The students would often ask me at college, "Well, what do you do if a person comes in and they've got these symptoms and you don't adjust them? Do you charge them money?" I said, "Absolutely. The patient is paying me to know what to do and when to do it and what not to do and when not to do it." That's, yes, of course.
You said something. We need to back up a little bit because you jumped the ahead a little bit because you said students would ask you at chiropractic college.
Oh. I guess so.
Our listeners don't know that that's where this story is going. You ended up being a professor at the chiropractic college.
I'm out there and Dr. Muncy wants to send me back to chiropractic college. I go back to chiropractic college, I graduated, go back out to Dr. Muncy, and get more education in how to take proper X-rays, how to take three-dimensional x-rays of the spine, and learn how to do this. I needed to learn how to do that, but I had nowhere to practice. I couldn't get into the state of California. Anyway, I pick up all the x-ray equipment and stuff in a U-Haul, take my wife and son, and we go back to Spartanburg, South Carolina, where we had a lot of other things we had to pick up.
While I'm there, a chiropractor who runs a chiropractic college called ADIO Institute of Chiropractic, he called me up and he wanted me to come teach the Blair work, which I knew, hadn't practiced it yet, but I knew it very well, wanted me to teach that at his chiropractic college. I did not want to do that. I wanted to go into practice. I was set to go into practice with another chiropractor who was a board of trustee member at Sherman College. His wife had been a fellow student with me in college there. I was due to take all my equipment and go up there and go into practice. Reggie Gold, that's his name, Dr. Gold, was the one that was asking me to come teach. I said, "Look, I'm just not interested in doing that."
This was at Sherman College?
Well, I was in Spartanburg to pick up all my equipment after I had graduated and then I was going to go from there to Indiana to go and do it with Dr. Ross. Reggie Gold, who's up in Pennsylvania at ADIO Institute of Chiropractic, he's the president up there, he hears that I have learned about the Blair work. To him, the most precise x-ray analysis for the upper neck area was absolutely the Blair work and he wanted it taught in his college. I was not interested. A week later, I'm in the Spartanburg County Library and I get a phone call. The librarian comes over and says, "You have a long-distance phone call." I said, ". Nobody knows I'm here," but Reggie had found out from my wife that I was at the library.
He calls me up, says, "Have you thought about this some more about coming up and teaching?" I says, "Reggie, I don't think it'd work. The kind of chiropractic eye practice does not fit well with the kind of chiropractors that don't want to use X-rays. They want to adjust the patient every time they come in. This is not going to be good for the school for me to be up there teaching the kind of chiropractic you want me to teach." He says, "Look, I'll fly down there or I'll fly you up here, but I want you up here at the school." At that point, I told Dr. Ross, "This is what Reggie wants me to do." He knew Reggie real well, and he says, "Perry, you need to go teach." I didn't want to hear that. Anyway, I go there.
Why didn't you want to teach?
I wanted to be in practice. I wanted to be practicing like Dr. Muncy-
And help people.
-and Dr. Blair and helping people.
What was it that convinced you?
Well, Reggie says to me, "What did you have to do to Blair work?" "Oh, I attended this seminar and that seminar and it cost a lot of money and I had to take off the weekend and I had to do all these things. It was pretty hard. You have to be pretty dedicated to want to learn this work because it's not taught in the colleges." He says, "Don't you think that it would be better if the Blair work were taught in chiropractic colleges?"
[laughs]
Knowing how much I believed in chiropractic and the Blair work, in particular. There's lots of good techniques out there. There are so many good upper cervical techniques. I'm talking about the Blair because I'm a Blair chiropractor.
Of course.
People have to understand there are a lot of people out there who can adjust an upper cervical subluxation with different techniques and approaches. Having said that, Reggie, one of the Blair work taught up there, I went up there and I ended up being up there two years. Now when Reggie left the college, I was going to go ahead and set up in my own office. It was a 2000-square-foot office. I had the x-ray equipment. I was going to go into practice with another friend of mine. Then I got this phone call from Thom Gelardi, well, really from Betty Gelardi. She was teaching chiropractic and she was trying to teach the Blair work at the college there in Spartanburg, South Carolina at Sherman College.
She said, "Perry, I really need you down here. Now that Reggie's no longer there, we really need you teaching the Blair work down here. Got a 60-hour course you can teach the students, it'll be required." I got to thinking about that. They were really wanting me to go do that, and here I would be doing something I didn't really want to do, but for the sake of the profession and the students who could use this, I felt an obligation to go down there and so I started teaching the work there.
I, as someone who's heard about you from Dr. Muncy long before I met you, what I'm hearing is you had an immense dedication to doing right for the patients. Part of that was you wanted directly to put your hands on people and make them well. You have this calling for teaching. Actually, what you've done is actually multiply what you're able to do yourself by training other doctors to do the same.
Well, it's interesting because yesterday your husband who's a Blair chiropractor from Texas now and practicing in the office where I wanted to go at one time in Dr. Blair's office, and you come from Dr. Muncie's office where I was first introduced. You all are sitting here Dr. Lenarz and your husband were sitting here just chatting away. Dr. Lenarz had told me at one time because I was bemoaning the fact that I was in practice, I was practicing chiropractic after I would get out of school at night, but I was bemoaning the fact that I wasn't out there really with Dr. Muncie or Dr. Blair or somebody really helping lots of people.
Dr. Lenarz looks over and he says, and he had said this previously, he says, "Dr. Rush, do you know that just in the last few years you have adjusted over 15,000 patients through my office because you taught me the Blair work and I went out there and practiced it?" I thought-
He trained others and so forth.
He's trying to make me feel better. That helped a little. [laughs]
He's trying to make you feel better but he's telling the truth.
Not only that, but he became a real advocate for the Blair work and went out there teaching it. He was setting up chiropractors and Blair practices. It's multiplied many, many, many times over, and so I guess in that regard, I can feel better. It was a sacrifice for my family. I didn't see it so much as a-- I knew we were going through hard times and I knew that I wasn't making the kind of money chiropractic colleges, they don't pay well. They don't pay well at all.
I wasn't making the kind of money that I felt could support my family the way I wanted to support them, but I had no interest in making a lot of money. I did have an interest in the comfort of my family. That never really, well, I say it never really happened, but this home we're sitting in right now, we managed to get into it, and this little small home was plenty adequate for raising my children, our children, Vicky and I, and what have you. Where can we go from this? Let's see.
Want to hear just a few of your most favorite stories of people that you've seen transformed. You have a chart here and some pictures.
I do, but I'll tell you, there are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of these kinds of patients.
I guess. That's the purpose of this podcast, is to get some of those stories told.